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	<title>Comments on: Keays v. Honda Canada: The SCC Says Employer Intimidation Is Just Fine!</title>
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	<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/</link>
	<description>The Court is the online resource for data and debate about the Supreme Court of Canada.</description>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/comment-page-1/#comment-255391</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 00:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/#comment-255391</guid>
		<description>Having worked for Honda I know for a fact that they play hardball with any &quot;associate&quot; that tries to take disability. The workers basically live in constant fear of losing their jobs buy hey that&#039;s good for business right. Keeps workers on their toes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having worked for Honda I know for a fact that they play hardball with any &#8220;associate&#8221; that tries to take disability. The workers basically live in constant fear of losing their jobs buy hey that&#8217;s good for business right. Keeps workers on their toes.</p>
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		<title>By: Metro</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/comment-page-1/#comment-80981</link>
		<dc:creator>Metro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/#comment-80981</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just a working joe with a fair understanding of English, but I work in the workplace safety education field. Do I correctly understand that Honda tried to threaten this guy to back work on the advice of two doctors at least one of whom had never even met him?

And yet there are people on this thread defending that course of action?
Remind me not to ask any of the defenders for referrals for dental work.

Honda stated outright that two doctors said Keays was fit for work. Only one had suggested RTW. That makes the statement half-truth at best.

Oddly, no-one&#039;s paying attention to the half-lie, so it seems. Arriving at this late date, it looks to me as though Honda didn&#039;t like the second opinion, and so went shopping for a third, then wallpapered the actual meaning of the doctors&#039; reports to look like a solid argument for screwing over one of its workers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just a working joe with a fair understanding of English, but I work in the workplace safety education field. Do I correctly understand that Honda tried to threaten this guy to back work on the advice of two doctors at least one of whom had never even met him?</p>
<p>And yet there are people on this thread defending that course of action?<br />
Remind me not to ask any of the defenders for referrals for dental work.</p>
<p>Honda stated outright that two doctors said Keays was fit for work. Only one had suggested RTW. That makes the statement half-truth at best.</p>
<p>Oddly, no-one&#8217;s paying attention to the half-lie, so it seems. Arriving at this late date, it looks to me as though Honda didn&#8217;t like the second opinion, and so went shopping for a third, then wallpapered the actual meaning of the doctors&#8217; reports to look like a solid argument for screwing over one of its workers.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Francis</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/comment-page-1/#comment-80845</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Francis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/#comment-80845</guid>
		<description>Mr. Bird points to the way in which &quot;Dr. Affoo&#039;s belief in the potential therapeutic value of work&quot; played into painting Mr. Keays as a faker.

This tactic of talking up the value of therapeutic value of work while relegating the disability/pain to the background is not unusual.

Here is what a FSCO arbitrator had to say on this very topic:



&lt;blockquote&gt;This leads to a fundamental concern regarding the AssessMed reports. In determining IRB entitlement, arbitrators look at function. In significant measure, especially in cases involving soft-tissue injury, the key questions are whether the applicant is in pain, how much pain is the applicant in, and how much pain is too much pain. AssessMed sets out in its report a statement of its philosophy, which includes:


     that a safe and timely return to work will benefit injured or ill individuals and their families by enhancing recovery and reducing disability.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This may be a laudable statement were it not that AssessMed appears to consider pain to be largely irrelevant. 



(FSCO A03-000056)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Bird points to the way in which &#8220;Dr. Affoo&#8217;s belief in the potential therapeutic value of work&#8221; played into painting Mr. Keays as a faker.</p>
<p>This tactic of talking up the value of therapeutic value of work while relegating the disability/pain to the background is not unusual.</p>
<p>Here is what a FSCO arbitrator had to say on this very topic:</p>
<blockquote><p>This leads to a fundamental concern regarding the AssessMed reports. In determining IRB entitlement, arbitrators look at function. In significant measure, especially in cases involving soft-tissue injury, the key questions are whether the applicant is in pain, how much pain is the applicant in, and how much pain is too much pain. AssessMed sets out in its report a statement of its philosophy, which includes:</p>
<p>     that a safe and timely return to work will benefit injured or ill individuals and their families by enhancing recovery and reducing disability.</p></blockquote>
<p>This may be a laudable statement were it not that AssessMed appears to consider pain to be largely irrelevant. </p>
<p>(FSCO A03-000056)</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Kindred</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/comment-page-1/#comment-80820</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Kindred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/#comment-80820</guid>
		<description>I really don&#039;t see how the (external) insurer&#039;s decision has any bearing on the employer&#039;s trustworthiness.  An insurer&#039;s decision is subject to appeal and eventual court challenge.  The trial judge determined that the insurer&#039;s decision was wrong, based (explicitly) on the lack of evidence that it was not a farce.  I have trouble even making sense of that finding, let alone seeing how it has any bearing on the issue of wrongful dismissal damages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#8217;t see how the (external) insurer&#8217;s decision has any bearing on the employer&#8217;s trustworthiness.  An insurer&#8217;s decision is subject to appeal and eventual court challenge.  The trial judge determined that the insurer&#8217;s decision was wrong, based (explicitly) on the lack of evidence that it was not a farce.  I have trouble even making sense of that finding, let alone seeing how it has any bearing on the issue of wrongful dismissal damages.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Francis</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/comment-page-1/#comment-80809</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Francis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/#comment-80809</guid>
		<description>The ONCA said &quot;not all of the blame can be laid at Honda&#039;s feet&quot; and reduced the punitive award accordingly. The SCC erased the award completely. Both failed to say at whose feet - if not Honda&#039;s - the remainder of the blame rests. Both the ONCA and the SCC avoided even mentioning this related finding (below) by the trial judge. At the very least this bit explains why Mr. Keays would not be willing to easily trust Honda&#039;s hand-picked doctors. The SCC intimited that Keays mistrust was completely unwarranted and without the slightest justification. On the contrary!
....................

Keays v. Honda Canada Inc., 2005 CanLII 8730 (ON S.C.) — 2005-03-17
 
[4]          Mr. Keay’s health situation deteriorated to the extent that he was off on disability from October 1996 until December 1998.  The insurer had originally denied coverage because his claim could not be supported by “objective medical evidence”.  After a period on Short Term Disability benefits (“STD”) he was approved for Long Term Disability benefits (“LTD”) in November 1997 and these were terminated as of December 1998 following a Work Capacity Evaluation (“WCE”) conducted by Assess Med on behalf of London Life.  The plaintiff has described this process as a “farce”.  No evidence has been led to contradict this position.  Accordingly, I find that he was wrongly terminated from his LTD.  His attempt to appeal this determination using the advocacy of his physician, Dr. Morris who proposed the diagnosis of CFS, was summarily dismissed by the insurer. 
 
[12]      In the meantime, due to the frustration and stress that was being generated by the “stone-walling” on the part of the Honda management hierarchy, Mr. Keays decided to retain legal counsel to attempt to mediate his concerns.  I am satisfied that he did this as a last resort because he legitimately felt that his disability would result in his termination, disqualifying him from the LTD which has been wrongly cancelled due to the “bogus” WCE conducted by Assess Med.  
 
....................................................................................................................</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ONCA said &#8220;not all of the blame can be laid at Honda&#8217;s feet&#8221; and reduced the punitive award accordingly. The SCC erased the award completely. Both failed to say at whose feet &#8211; if not Honda&#8217;s &#8211; the remainder of the blame rests. Both the ONCA and the SCC avoided even mentioning this related finding (below) by the trial judge. At the very least this bit explains why Mr. Keays would not be willing to easily trust Honda&#8217;s hand-picked doctors. The SCC intimited that Keays mistrust was completely unwarranted and without the slightest justification. On the contrary!<br />
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p>Keays v. Honda Canada Inc., 2005 CanLII 8730 (ON S.C.) — 2005-03-17</p>
<p>[4]          Mr. Keay’s health situation deteriorated to the extent that he was off on disability from October 1996 until December 1998.  The insurer had originally denied coverage because his claim could not be supported by “objective medical evidence”.  After a period on Short Term Disability benefits (“STD”) he was approved for Long Term Disability benefits (“LTD”) in November 1997 and these were terminated as of December 1998 following a Work Capacity Evaluation (“WCE”) conducted by Assess Med on behalf of London Life.  The plaintiff has described this process as a “farce”.  No evidence has been led to contradict this position.  Accordingly, I find that he was wrongly terminated from his LTD.  His attempt to appeal this determination using the advocacy of his physician, Dr. Morris who proposed the diagnosis of CFS, was summarily dismissed by the insurer. </p>
<p>[12]      In the meantime, due to the frustration and stress that was being generated by the “stone-walling” on the part of the Honda management hierarchy, Mr. Keays decided to retain legal counsel to attempt to mediate his concerns.  I am satisfied that he did this as a last resort because he legitimately felt that his disability would result in his termination, disqualifying him from the LTD which has been wrongly cancelled due to the “bogus” WCE conducted by Assess Med.  </p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Francis</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/comment-page-1/#comment-80803</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Francis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/#comment-80803</guid>
		<description>Finally, a grounded review of this decision. Now if only someone would point out that Honda doctors would have relied on the bogus, farcical medical assessment its group health carrier used to blow Mr. Keays off his long term disbility benefits and put him at the mercy of Hobda&#039;s hand-picked, hardball doctors.

The SCC has given employers and their group health carriers to declare open season on disabled employers. Further, the SCC has demonstrated it will look the other way and feigh blissfull ignorance while corporations use bogus third party medical assessments to bolster the biased opinions of its own doctors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally, a grounded review of this decision. Now if only someone would point out that Honda doctors would have relied on the bogus, farcical medical assessment its group health carrier used to blow Mr. Keays off his long term disbility benefits and put him at the mercy of Hobda&#8217;s hand-picked, hardball doctors.</p>
<p>The SCC has given employers and their group health carriers to declare open season on disabled employers. Further, the SCC has demonstrated it will look the other way and feigh blissfull ignorance while corporations use bogus third party medical assessments to bolster the biased opinions of its own doctors.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Kindred</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/comment-page-1/#comment-80791</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Kindred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/#comment-80791</guid>
		<description>I disagree with your assessment of the case and of Honda&#039;s conduct.  One of the scariest things about the lower court decisions was that Honda&#039;s conduct was more or less reflective of what most of us would advise as responsible disability management practices.  Part of it is interpretation of the facts, though, so I see that there&#039;s room to disagree.

One point that I might clarify from your comments.  You find the statement &quot; ... we no longer accept that you have a disability requiring your absence from work.  The Drs believe you should be attending ...&quot; to be misleading because the doctors did not challenge the diagnosis.  There&#039;s a fundamental difference, though, between a diagnosis and a disability.  A doctor can talk about a diagnosis and the associated limitations; but only an employer can conclude that those limitations amount to a disability requiring absence from work.  That is is a fundamental part of good disability management, and the distinction gets lost all too often.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with your assessment of the case and of Honda&#8217;s conduct.  One of the scariest things about the lower court decisions was that Honda&#8217;s conduct was more or less reflective of what most of us would advise as responsible disability management practices.  Part of it is interpretation of the facts, though, so I see that there&#8217;s room to disagree.</p>
<p>One point that I might clarify from your comments.  You find the statement &#8221; &#8230; we no longer accept that you have a disability requiring your absence from work.  The Drs believe you should be attending &#8230;&#8221; to be misleading because the doctors did not challenge the diagnosis.  There&#8217;s a fundamental difference, though, between a diagnosis and a disability.  A doctor can talk about a diagnosis and the associated limitations; but only an employer can conclude that those limitations amount to a disability requiring absence from work.  That is is a fundamental part of good disability management, and the distinction gets lost all too often.</p>
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		<title>By: Antonin I. Pribetic</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/comment-page-1/#comment-80752</link>
		<dc:creator>Antonin I. Pribetic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2008/07/10/keays-v-honda-canada-the-scc-says-employer-intimidation-is-just-fine/#comment-80752</guid>
		<description>&quot;Their use of half-truths is the worst sort of legal weaseling that gives the profession a bad name; technically true but nonetheless designed to insult, hurt and inflame. For this, Honda Canada have been given a pass by the Supreme Court of Canada. And that’s just wrong.&quot;

While I share some of your concerns over the majority&#039;s revised approach on aggravated and punitive damages, the impact of your analysis is diminished by your injudicious use of inflammatory rhetoric. Rational argument has no room for ad hominem attacks by resorting to describing Justice Bastarache&#039;s legal reasoning as musteline. 

This is particularly inappropriate given the recent Federal Court rebuke of former Justice Gomery in the Sponsorship Inquiry. As Justice Teitelbaum notes, judges should speak only through their judgments: &quot;This is the only appropriate forum in which a decision-maker should state his or her conclusions. As my colleague, mentor and friend, the late Justice Frank Collier, once said to me when I was first appointed as a judge, &#039;let the decision speak for itself.&#039;&quot; 

Fair comment is one thing; disrespecting the judiciary is another. Your time and efforts would be better spent in developing new legal arguments for future cases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Their use of half-truths is the worst sort of legal weaseling that gives the profession a bad name; technically true but nonetheless designed to insult, hurt and inflame. For this, Honda Canada have been given a pass by the Supreme Court of Canada. And that’s just wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>While I share some of your concerns over the majority&#8217;s revised approach on aggravated and punitive damages, the impact of your analysis is diminished by your injudicious use of inflammatory rhetoric. Rational argument has no room for ad hominem attacks by resorting to describing Justice Bastarache&#8217;s legal reasoning as musteline. </p>
<p>This is particularly inappropriate given the recent Federal Court rebuke of former Justice Gomery in the Sponsorship Inquiry. As Justice Teitelbaum notes, judges should speak only through their judgments: &#8220;This is the only appropriate forum in which a decision-maker should state his or her conclusions. As my colleague, mentor and friend, the late Justice Frank Collier, once said to me when I was first appointed as a judge, &#8216;let the decision speak for itself.&#8217;&#8221; </p>
<p>Fair comment is one thing; disrespecting the judiciary is another. Your time and efforts would be better spent in developing new legal arguments for future cases.</p>
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