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	<title>Comments on: Another Step Toward Eliminating Judicial Discretion in Sentencing</title>
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	<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/</link>
	<description>The Court is the online resource for data and debate about the Supreme Court of Canada.</description>
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		<title>By: Lawrence Gridin</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/comment-page-1/#comment-128719</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence Gridin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/#comment-128719</guid>
		<description>Very good post. You succinctly said what I have been thinking for a long time.

Parliament is not in a good position to sit in judgment over an individual offender. They have no knowledge of the facts in any individual case. 

&quot;Automatic&quot; sentencing, such as a mandatory minimum sentencing regime, takes discretion away from the person that is in the best position to determine a sentence: the judge. 

That is why we employ judges in the first place: to sit in front of an accused person; see them; hear their plea; and ultimately, decide upon a fit and appropriate sentence that is catered to the unique facts and circumstances of that person.

Thanks Mr. Stribopoulos</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good post. You succinctly said what I have been thinking for a long time.</p>
<p>Parliament is not in a good position to sit in judgment over an individual offender. They have no knowledge of the facts in any individual case. </p>
<p>&#8220;Automatic&#8221; sentencing, such as a mandatory minimum sentencing regime, takes discretion away from the person that is in the best position to determine a sentence: the judge. </p>
<p>That is why we employ judges in the first place: to sit in front of an accused person; see them; hear their plea; and ultimately, decide upon a fit and appropriate sentence that is catered to the unique facts and circumstances of that person.</p>
<p>Thanks Mr. Stribopoulos</p>
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		<title>By: Ali</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/comment-page-1/#comment-128427</link>
		<dc:creator>Ali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 14:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/#comment-128427</guid>
		<description>I thinks it&#039;s a good move. How many times do you see an accused stay in pretrial custody for a few months only to plead gluilty and be released a couple days later on the 2 4 1 plan. We keep fogetting about the victims of these crimes who have to suffer for years on end because of the accuse&#039;d actions. 

I think we spend to much time worrying about the so called poor accused who is spending their time in deplorable conditions. Thats where they belong, they committed a crime against us, society, innocent people. 

Stop concerning yourself with the accused,  leave them in jail to rot!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thinks it&#8217;s a good move. How many times do you see an accused stay in pretrial custody for a few months only to plead gluilty and be released a couple days later on the 2 4 1 plan. We keep fogetting about the victims of these crimes who have to suffer for years on end because of the accuse&#8217;d actions. </p>
<p>I think we spend to much time worrying about the so called poor accused who is spending their time in deplorable conditions. Thats where they belong, they committed a crime against us, society, innocent people. </p>
<p>Stop concerning yourself with the accused,  leave them in jail to rot!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/comment-page-1/#comment-128193</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/#comment-128193</guid>
		<description>While I don&#039;t necessarily agree with the proposed legislation, especially the hard cap of 1.5:1 ratio for time served if justification is provided, this is a situation that judges have gotten themselves into, as the application of 2:1 or even 3:1 ratios have not been discretionary, but prima facie in most regions across Canada. My question regarding the change is how much real impact it will have on sentencing, and if judges will begin lowering imposed sentences knowing that credit for time served is no longer applied.

One possible unintended consequence of this legislation may be a backlog on the courts, as people push for quick trials (and the resultant Charter challenges on 8(b)), rather than serving dead time which without the ratio of credit no longer benefits the accused. In fact, serving dead time now most likely hurts them based on opportunities for defacto sentence reduction via early release/probation after sentencing.

While, as commented by Rob, this may be an opening salvo, and early release may be the next target by the government, the change that is proposed seems to alter the &quot;rules of the game&quot; and it will be interesting to see how the courts adapt to it. While one area of judical discretion has been taken away, sentencing is still an inherently flexible procedure, and judges are able to accomodate these changes, and still craft a sentence that is &quot;fair&quot; in their eyes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I don&#8217;t necessarily agree with the proposed legislation, especially the hard cap of 1.5:1 ratio for time served if justification is provided, this is a situation that judges have gotten themselves into, as the application of 2:1 or even 3:1 ratios have not been discretionary, but prima facie in most regions across Canada. My question regarding the change is how much real impact it will have on sentencing, and if judges will begin lowering imposed sentences knowing that credit for time served is no longer applied.</p>
<p>One possible unintended consequence of this legislation may be a backlog on the courts, as people push for quick trials (and the resultant Charter challenges on 8(b)), rather than serving dead time which without the ratio of credit no longer benefits the accused. In fact, serving dead time now most likely hurts them based on opportunities for defacto sentence reduction via early release/probation after sentencing.</p>
<p>While, as commented by Rob, this may be an opening salvo, and early release may be the next target by the government, the change that is proposed seems to alter the &#8220;rules of the game&#8221; and it will be interesting to see how the courts adapt to it. While one area of judical discretion has been taken away, sentencing is still an inherently flexible procedure, and judges are able to accomodate these changes, and still craft a sentence that is &#8220;fair&#8221; in their eyes.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/comment-page-1/#comment-127921</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/#comment-127921</guid>
		<description>I agree with the sentiment that an informed observer can&#039;t but be cynical about the motivation for this.

I have one issue with your arguments. You mention that the period spent in pretrial custody is not open to remission for good behaviour and then you go on to discuss the parole regime for federal offenders.

There is no earned remission for federal offenders in Canada. Remission was abolished in 1969 when the system now known as statutory release was established. Before &#039;69, offenders earned early release with good behaviour that usually cut sentences by one third. Offenders were therefore released after serving two thirds of their sentences. The sentence was deemed completed (what we call warrant expiry today). Politicians decided to change the system because parole, introduced earlier, had shown such great results. Offenders released with some form of supervision and structure reoffended less often. The politicians decided that virtually all offenders should be released with structure and supervision, so they established what is now called statutory release (mandatory supervision formerly). This meant that the sentences of offenders were essentially lengthened, since that final third that was usually cancelled out through good behaviour (the remission), was now served in the community, under supervision.

And don&#039;t forget this current Conservative government wants to eliminate statutory release, a tactic that was originally implemented because it showed promise in making communities safer. The Tories tout the plan to eliminate stat release as another get-tough measure, yet statutory release was established 40 years ago as a get-tough measure that replaced a soft-on crime loophole – earned remission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the sentiment that an informed observer can&#8217;t but be cynical about the motivation for this.</p>
<p>I have one issue with your arguments. You mention that the period spent in pretrial custody is not open to remission for good behaviour and then you go on to discuss the parole regime for federal offenders.</p>
<p>There is no earned remission for federal offenders in Canada. Remission was abolished in 1969 when the system now known as statutory release was established. Before &#8217;69, offenders earned early release with good behaviour that usually cut sentences by one third. Offenders were therefore released after serving two thirds of their sentences. The sentence was deemed completed (what we call warrant expiry today). Politicians decided to change the system because parole, introduced earlier, had shown such great results. Offenders released with some form of supervision and structure reoffended less often. The politicians decided that virtually all offenders should be released with structure and supervision, so they established what is now called statutory release (mandatory supervision formerly). This meant that the sentences of offenders were essentially lengthened, since that final third that was usually cancelled out through good behaviour (the remission), was now served in the community, under supervision.</p>
<p>And don&#8217;t forget this current Conservative government wants to eliminate statutory release, a tactic that was originally implemented because it showed promise in making communities safer. The Tories tout the plan to eliminate stat release as another get-tough measure, yet statutory release was established 40 years ago as a get-tough measure that replaced a soft-on crime loophole – earned remission.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/comment-page-1/#comment-127899</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/#comment-127899</guid>
		<description>Non-lawyers I talk to all hate 2-for-1 -- they think it&#039;s nonsense that two years can magically become four. Guess they are just ignorant. It&#039;s a good thing they don&#039;t know about statutory release at 2/3rds of the term (which reporters rarely deign to mention), because then they&#039;d be even more outraged. 

Here in BC, judges seem bound to apply the 2-for-1 rule to forestall an appeal. It doesn&#039;t seem discretionary to me. 

Anyway, Bob Tarantino makes short work of your arguments here:

http://bobtarantino.blogs.com/blog/2009/03/how-not-to-argue-in-favour-of-2for1.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Non-lawyers I talk to all hate 2-for-1 &#8212; they think it&#8217;s nonsense that two years can magically become four. Guess they are just ignorant. It&#8217;s a good thing they don&#8217;t know about statutory release at 2/3rds of the term (which reporters rarely deign to mention), because then they&#8217;d be even more outraged. </p>
<p>Here in BC, judges seem bound to apply the 2-for-1 rule to forestall an appeal. It doesn&#8217;t seem discretionary to me. </p>
<p>Anyway, Bob Tarantino makes short work of your arguments here:</p>
<p><a href="http://bobtarantino.blogs.com/blog/2009/03/how-not-to-argue-in-favour-of-2for1.html" rel="nofollow">http://bobtarantino.blogs.com/blog/2009/03/how-not-to-argue-in-favour-of-2for1.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/comment-page-1/#comment-127890</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thecourt.ca/2009/03/27/another-step-toward-eliminating-judicial-discretion-in-sentencing/#comment-127890</guid>
		<description>You may be right that mandatory minimums do not affect crime rates.  But you have missed the point of the legislation.  You focus on justice being done.  This legislation focuses on seeing justice be done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may be right that mandatory minimums do not affect crime rates.  But you have missed the point of the legislation.  You focus on justice being done.  This legislation focuses on seeing justice be done.</p>
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